Both sides of the concealed-weapons debate squared off last week in anticipation of next month's showdown, when lawmakers will decide whether to override Gov. Bob Holden's veto.

Gun-rights advocates, though concerned that they may not have the votes to enact the law this year, argued that people should not be precluded from defending themselves in an uncertain and often dangerous world.

Bob Curtis, mental health director in Miami County, Kan., and an instructor in defensive handgun techniques, said he had twice scared off would-be attackers simply by having a gun in his possession.

"Law-abiding citizens don't stop being law-abiding when they carry weapons," Curtis said. "Criminals don't stop being criminals. The (current) law just disarms people like me."

Opponents argued that an armed society makes life more dangerous, not less. Legalizing hidden guns, they said, increases the chance of accidental shootings and undermines broader efforts to reduce violence among young people.

Rep. Yvonne Wilson, a Kansas City Democrat, said guns were a particular menace in her inner-city district. Their presence on the street, she said, creates problems for children.

"I see more than needs to be seen with respect to gun violence," Wilson said. "Concealed guns enhance the opportunity for unnecessary violence and unnecessary loss of life."

The forum, sponsored Thursday by the Kansas City Young Republicans, came six weeks before the legislature is scheduled to consider whether to override the governor's veto of a bill legalizing concealed guns.

The crowd, which leaned heavily in favor of concealed handguns, was told that concealed carry was unlikely to become law this year.

Republican Reps. Shannon Cooper of Clinton and Bryan Pratt of Blue Springs predicted that the House would vote to override the governor's veto. But they said the Senate appeared to be at least one vote short of the two-thirds necessary to override the veto.

In his veto message, Holden, a Democrat, cited multiple reasons for rejecting the legislation. He said it violated federal law by allowing people convicted of domestic violence to carry a concealed gun.

The bill, Holden wrote, would put the public at risk by allowing concealed guns to be carried on to Little League baseball fields and into restaurants, bars, child-care centers, schools and churches if authorized by the owner or other official.

The bill also flouts public opinion, Holden wrote, because it is less restrictive and would require less training than the concealed-weapons proposal that Missouri voters rejected in 1999. The governor also criticized the provision that makes secret the identity of those with permits to carry concealed guns.

At Thursday night's forum, Todd Elkins, an Independence minister, joined in the criticism of the secrecy surrounding those who want a permit to carry a concealed gun. Such a provision would prevent the public from learning whether permit holders committed crimes, he said.

Elkins, chairman of a coalition of faith-based groups called Missouri Impact, called the concealed-carry bill anti-community because it supersedes local control. He warned that the bill would also allow people without concealed-gun permits or firearm training to conceal a gun within their car.

Proponents of concealed carry noted that the 1999 ballot proposal was favored by majorities in 104 of the state's 114 counties. Gary Davis, a former president of the Western Missouri Shooters Alliance, said voters in Kansas City and St. Louis should not be dictating public policy for the entire state.

Davis, who lives in the inner city, chided gun opponents for claiming that guns would put children in danger.

"The children they are talking about are the ones doing the killing," Davis said, citing a recent case in which police accused a 15-year-old of a drive-by shooting.

He said he agreed with U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, who has said the problem is about culture, not about guns. Music that encourages urban youths to be violent, deal drugs and treat women disrespectfully leads to criminal behavior, Davis said. To deal with criminals, law-abiding people need to be able to carry guns to protect themselves, he said.

Kevin Jamison, a Gladstone lawyer who has worked to legalize concealed weapons since 1991, promised that if the legislature failed to override the governor's veto, gun-rights supporters would be back with another bill next year.

"You have the right to defend yourself, but not the right to the means of self-defense," Jamison said. "You're left to duke it out with a guy who may have a knife....It's not just. It's not fair. The legislature took our right away from us in 1879, and we want it back."

Wilson, however, said such statements ignored the need for people to work together to solve crime problems.

"What we're doing is raising the level of fear," Wilson said. "We've raised it so much that we're willing to kill each other."